CV You must be very busy today~
AB Yeah, it’s so weird. I’m just not used to having a premiere and a film festival experience where you’re not with anybody. It’s like I’m busy, but it’s so different.
CV I hear ya!
I'd like to just start out with some questions about you as a filmmaker-
What is your criteria into making the decision that you are going to make a documentary? What is needed for you?
I would think you might get a lot of pitches, you’re out there and you read a lot. What is it that makes you say, ‘I’m going to make this documentary"?
AB I definitely take my time in assessing a film and the elements that are available to me - such as the archive; the subjects that I can interview; characters in the film; and I just really need to flesh out the story and make sure that I’m on board.
Often people have done a lot of research before they come to me and they want to tell a story, and I just want to check it out from my own standpoint and make sure that I can do it justice.
I put a lot of time into every film that I make. Usually I always try to make a film in a year - and it always takes three - so if I’m going to spend three years on something I want to make sure that I can live with it and then I can tell the story properly.
CV What do you strive for with your films?
Do you have the thought at the beginning of when it’s completed and the world sees it, it will have a certain impact?
AB Since the first film I made, Deliver Us From Evil, I've always wanted to make sure that there’s an emotional experience that the audience can go on. I guess my measure for that is if I’m still feeling emotional about everything that’s in the film after spending so much time with it, then usually it’s a successful film.
And so I really do try to capture that narrative from an emotional standpoint.
CV Tell us about the title of this documentary. What does it mean?
AB The phoenix is the mythological character that rises from the ashes and prevails; and Evan named the legislation that they coauthored the Phoenix Act. And so we kind of looked at her as a phoenix in this journey that she went on in the state of California to change the domestic violence laws.
CV How did this all come about - how did the doc come together? Did you have an outline of sorts?
Some of this had already happened…Can you give us a bit of a timeline on how it came together?
AB I always try to have an outline and try to write a lot before I start a film. But you never really follow a script, you know- I think that’s just for my research. I read everything and watch everything, and really try to come up with a script so to speak so that I can know that I have a beginning, middle and end; but I’m always surprised once you start filming you just kind of follow the story and see where it goes.
We fortunately had a great story to follow here, but initially Evan and I were just talking about making a film about the Phoenix Act and domestic violence in California. The story got much larger when her journey led her toward naming her abuser and trying to elevate the voices of the survivors of Brian Warner’s abuse, as well as domestic violence survivors in California.
CV When did this all begin?
AB We started following her in the summer of 2019, kind of unofficially just to see where things were going with the state legislature. And then we really started shooting the film in the summer of 2020. So we were shooting for about a year and we’ve been editing since the winter of 2020.
CV What were the unique challenges with this film? I have heard she is a very private person..
AB I have known Evan for many years so we were able to have some short hand in that way where there was already some trust there; but the challenges in this project really I would say were around the content: It’s very dark. Abuse is dark - no matter how you look at it. This story had really dark elements. You see quite a bit of archive in the first half, we have a lot of archive behind-the-scenes footage. It’s really dark content.
I’m a Jewish woman, it’s hard to watch this antisemitic rhetoric and racism, and all of the violence against all of the different people in his life. It was heavy content, and trauma is heavy, you know?
CV How does that come off as entertaining? It’s baffling to me that people found it entertaining..
AB There’s an article in Rolling Stone 2015 where they list out his most shocking moments. It lists his shock antics that he was imposing on his victims. He was doing everything in public and it wasn’t taken very seriously, even by the media.
CV The other challenge I would think is that he is a very public figure. It’s out there now, there are devoted fans, he is powerful in the entertainment business. And legally the challenges: I know you’ve dealt with legalities before..
AB Like on every film I’ve made!
CV Is this any different?
AB. Well yeah, of course this is different. I have an incredible attorney, and he checks every single frame throughout the film. We are very covered.
And HBO is used to this as well.
CV There’s a documentary series at this year’s Sundance that’s similar in a way…about abuse by a high profile entertainer. But he was convicted. “We Need To Talk About Cosby”. Have you seen it?
AB. No, the only film I’ve seen from Sundance thus far is the Sinead O’Connor documentary, “Nothing Compares”. Super powerful.
CV The reason I brought up the Cosby docs series is because in that he’s already convicted; but then unexpectedly he is released from prison during the filming.
Also that this awareness is now coming out in regards to memorialized figures in the entertainment business and accountability.
AB. Yes, we are all responsible. We can’t put people on pedestals that are hurting others it just inflates the issue. I have received quite a bit of mail today - he has an army of fans and they are going to defend him until the end.
CV You’ve had your films at other festivals before. Why is Sundance Film Festival an important one to premiere your films - especially this film in particular?
AB There’s nothing really like Sundance. It’s such a unique festival. The environment obviously adds to the experience, and you’re showing your film to your peers and everyone’s huddled together. The proximity of the festival is a block. It’s a great place to premiere a film.
The audiences are incredible, and it’s a celebration of documentaries. Documentaries are treated in the same category as scripted films, so it’s one of the best festivals in the world.
CV HBO seems to be one of the first to really grasp onto that - to start doing documentaries - buying and producing them.
AB HBO’s great to work with. This is my second time doing a film with them - it’s really a great experience always.
CV How is this Sundance different? In particular, the obvious being that it's not in Park City/in person due to Covid.
Is this possibly better for your film? What are your feelings about that? Is it maybe better some ways that it was done online ….or maybe not? Possibly because more people are seeing it?
AB I think we’re at a disadvantage, because you’re only seeing half of the film, and the film that I made is the experience to see both parts of it. All you’re seeing now is the backstory leading up to when we start following the story. It would’ve been great for people like you to have had the full experience, that will be soon coming in the Spring.
CV So it all is already completed?
AB Yes, we’re still finishing color and sound -we’re still in post but the movie is done.
We found out about Sundance at the end of the year. It just adds a lot of extra time: We have to basically deliver the film two times when you have a festival before your delivery date. So, we had to do a like a quick and dirty mix.
You didn’t see it with the final music, or...a couple of things will change in part one, but mostly it’s done.
CV Can you please speak for Evan? What did she hope the impact of this will be? Again, she's said to be a very quiet, shy, reserved person. What was the impetus for her to do this - to come forward with this?
AB I hesitate to speak for Evan. What I can say is the reason she wanted to make the film in the first place was because she wanted to report a crime and she was outside of the statute of limitations; so her goal is to elevate the voices of those who cannot speak up. She wants justice.
But I think her main goal is just like my main goal is in making this film - it is to educate people about domestic violence so that you can see the warning signs, which we specify clearly in the first part of the film.
CV What was the reaction after last night - the film’s premiere?
AB I’ve got the fans who stand with Manson till the end - I’ve gotten a lot of emails like that.
We got a great response from the media, we got really good reviews.
I don’t know how many people viewed it - I didn’t talk to people after the screening and hear what it meant to them. Those are all the fun things about being at a film festival premiering a film - you get to talk to real people about their experiences. So that’s unfortunate, but here we are. Maybe next year!
CV Well you’ll be getting a lot of texts I’m sure, and emails. I know on the online chat last night after your Q&A there were a lot of people who were responding very positively, and how important it is and what an impact it made on them
AB Thanks Claire
CV So, do you think in the Spring time it’s going to be on HBO?
AB Yes
CV And it will be two parts? What can we expect from the second part?
AB Oh a lot - there is a lot. The whole film takes place in the second part!
It’s longer and it moves fast. It’s an investigation. And it’s a very intimate portrait of what goes on behind the scenes in deliberating over when to speak publicly, and how to grapple with that.
CV Thanks very much. I look forward to seeing that.
Good luck, and thank you for making this.
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